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Opening of the sitting No. 4

Debate (continued): The functioning of democratic institutions in Poland

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:35:41

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Dear colleagues, the sitting is now open.

There has been a proposed change in the membership of the committees. They are set out in document Commissions (2020) 01, Addendum 3. Are the proposed changes in the membership of the Assembly's committees agreed to? They are agreed to.

The ballots to elect the judge to the European Court of Human Rights in respect of France and the second round to elect a Vice President for the Russian Federation are open again. Those who have not yet voted may still do so by going to the area behind the President's chair.

The elections close at 5 p.m.

I remind Ms UCA, Ms SUSTAR, Mr CEGONHO and Ms GASIUK-PIHOWICZ, the tellers, that they should meet behind the President's Chair when the votes close. If possible, the results will be announced before the end of the sitting this afternoon. We will continue our work during this time and I apologise for the mispronunciation of the names if there are any but it's not easy for me.

The credentials of the delegations from North Macedonia, Poland, Portugal, San Marino, Sweden and Switzerland were challenged under procedural grounds. Under Rule 7.2, the Assembly refers the credentials to the Committee on Rules of Procedure, Immunities and Institutional Affairs. I have received a letter from the Rules Committee which I shall now read out.

"On 27 January 2020 at the opening of the Parliamentary Assembly session, the still unratified credentials of six parliamentary delegations (North Macedonia, Poland, Portugal, San Marino, Sweden and Switzerland) were challenged on procedural grounds in accordance with Rule 7.1 of the Assembly's Rules of Procedure.

On the ground that the composition of these delegations failed to meet the condition laid down in Rule 6.2.a. of the Rules of Procedure whereby national delegations must include the under-represented sex at least in the same percentage as it is present in their parliaments.

At its meeting on 28 January 2020, the Committee on Rules of Procedure, Immunities and Institutional Affairs examined the objections raised. It notes that the condition laid down in Rule 6.2 of the Assembly's Rules of Procedure according to which national delegations shall include the under-represented sex at least in the same percentage as is present in their parliaments and at a very minimum one member of the under-represented appointed as a representative is not sanctioned by Rule 7.1.b. Because in this room, only a failure to meet the requirements that there must be at least one woman representative in each delegation can form the basis for the challenge to the credentials submitted. This condition, which is most certainly very limited when it comes to the fair representation of women, can legitimately be considered unsatisfactory. Therefore, the Committee on Rules of Procedure should be invited to prepare a report on this issue.

The Committee on Rules of Procedure notes that the composition of all these delegations fulfils the conditions laid down in Rule 7.1.b. as they include at least one member of the under-represented sex as a representative. The Committee therefore concludes that the credentials of the six parliamentary delegations in question should be ratified. The credentials of the delegations from North Macedonia, Poland, Portugal, San Marino, Sweden and Switzerland are ratified accordingly."

The next item on the Agenda is the continuation of the debates on the functioning of democratic institutions in Poland. In a moment I shall call Mr Pieter OMTZIGT and Ms Azadeh ROHJAN GUSTAFSSON co-rapporteurs to reply to this morning's debate. You have seven and a half minutes.

I call Mr Pieter OMTZIGT.

Okay, Ms Azadeh ROHJAN GUSTAFSSON wants to go first.

Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON

Co-Rapporteur, Sweden, SOC 

15:40:46

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I will be very short. I would just like to say, in response to what some of our colleagues have said during the debate, that me and my co-rapporteur, Mr OMTZIGT, have only been... we don't have an interest in the Polish politics or the internal affairs in the country of Poland.

Our basic, our principles, have been the same principles as the Assembly; it's been about the rule of law, it has been about democracy and it has been about human rights.

Those are the principles that we have followed when we have put this report together. I just want to highlight this as a response to what some of our colleagues have said here today, and I will also say that we have also followed what the Venice Commission has said and what the what the European Court of Human Rights has said. As you know, those bodies are very respected bodies, and there is nothing biased about the reports that they have put forward.

I know that my colleague will elaborate a little bit more.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:41:55

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Mr Pieter OMTZIGT.

Mr Pieter OMTZIGT

Co-Rapporteur, Netherlands, EPP/CD 

15:41:58

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Thank you very much, and thank you very much for the broad support for our report and for the cooperation in writing it.

Indeed as Ms Maryvonne BLONDIN, but also Mr John HOWELL and Mr Andreas NICK noted, it took a long time. Please bear with us, we've only been rapporteurs for one year and have done our utmost best to present this report here.

Whereas we as an Assembly have been a little bit slow, the Venice commission has not been slow at any rate. Whenever something happened - and colleagues have already referred to it - they've given five very interesting opinions about the basic failings of the reforms of Poland.

And let me state - and I think Ms Thorhildur Sunna ÆVARSDÓTTIR was actually most clear with that point - if judiciary is not impartial, then it cannot protect the citizen against the state. And that's exactly the point we're discussing here today. Lots of violations of human rights come from other bodies, but the State, look at the last century, does not particularly come at the last place as the entity causing problems with human rights. And that's why you lay the groundwork, if you make the judiciary subordinate to the state. And it's not one thing that makes it subordinate.

That's where the word "Frankensteinization", which was challenged, comes from. It's a "Frankensteinization" of putting parts from everywhere to make sure you have no control. So the National Council of the Judiciary is now elected by Parliament where there is a one-party rule which is been elected perfectly democratically, no problem, but the effect is that you have a self-governing body elected by the sitting party.

And the effect of having one person who's the Minister of Justice and at the same time Prosecutor General is that that person, also because of the reform of the law on the common courts, has got nearly universal power on both the laws, on the courts, on the judges, and on the prosecutors. And he can even interfere within a particular case. Now that is something we simply do not want.

Let me also point out a few challenges to our report, which were made by colleagues. Mr. Zsolt CSENGER-ZALÁN said there were factual mistakes, but I did not note any factual mistakes he was mentioning, so if I find it difficult.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI said many judges were judges on the martial law. Now, martial law ended in Poland in 1983: that's 37 years ago. Let me tell you that quite a few judges have changed and actually the average judge in Poland is quite young. There are very very very few people who were judges then and who are judges now. So don't give the wrong arguments. Yes, there is an issue in Poland whether there was a clear-cut after communism. There is an issue there, but it's not an issue for the present day. It's not an issue you can blame on the present judges in Poland.

Then we have Mr. Stefan SCHENNACH who made one slight mistake because the amendment, Mr. Stefan SCHENNACH, which you tabled and which weren't present was actually approved 13 to 9 in the committee. That means that we did not take any position in a committee on whether we should open monitoring right now. We didn't take a position, because we've seen a quick deterioration of the last few weeks with the laws and amendments that have been tabled. But we were not asked in our original report. So we leave it here, but the Committee on this has been pretty clear.

Ms Iwona ARENT, I really like some points you make. I think we should discuss about what's happening in France, and please let's organize a discussion about it here. And when we talk about France we will ask the French MPs to discuss and give a reply on how France is dealing with it. And I was hoping today that some of the Polish MPs would say "Well, we did this reform and you see it in the wrong way". That I would have understood, but if the only answer you give is "that's happening in that country, that's happening in that country, that's happening in other country" without actually replying to any of the arguments we make in our report, then I'm just a little bit disappointed, because I like the debate. I would have loved the debate with your Minister of Justice or with your president or with the staff of your president, because I understand that we're not at the same level as a president. But we we're not even allowed to. And the whole thing is that we should have a discussion about what's going on because what's happening in the police courts, also has an influence on all the other 27 EU countries.

And that's also, with due respect to Mr Edward LEIGH, that particular party he was referring to was actually a special chamber which is now under political control. Now if there's one body, one body you do not want to have under political control, then it is the body which decides when there is a dispute on the outcome of the election. That's the one thing you want to make sure you have politicians, left, right, center, retired, but not under party political control. Now I think the decisions they took where right. I think they took honest decisions, but the appearance already is quite bad. Because someone can start complaining about the appearance.

I hope we had a good discussion and our Committee took a number of viewpoints on the amendments. And I think those were good viewpoints, so I think we could follow them as rapporteurs. We were able to think those to support all the positions our committee took.

And just one final word, Mr President. This report is for the citizens of Poland. It's for the citizens of Poland to have a fair and impartial judiciary whoever is in power. And that's why I hope we can start that discussion.

Thank you very much.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:48:33

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Mr Pieter OMTZIGT.

Thank you, Mr Pieter OMTZIGT.

Does the Chairperson of the Committee wish to speak?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE, Chairperson of the Committee on the Honouring of Obligations and Commitments by member state of the Council of Europe 

15:48:40

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Thank you so much.

Also, on behalf of the Monitoring Committee, I would like to say a huge thank you to the two co-reporteurs for their very excellent report and also to the Secretariat.

We all know in this assembly that it has been a difficult and also very sensitive report. I must address that this is also a very important report to decide on. Because the Committee has actually said quite clearly that the situation in Poland is very worrying, and that also it has to be addressed on different issues. Also, that regarding the issue if Poland should be put under the monitoring instrument or not, the Committee actually was in favour of that.

That is not a light task to do. That is actually a big step to do. Especially in light of that Poland is one of the successful countries that adopted capitalism, adopted democracy, after a communist past. But we also see developments in Poland, especially in the last few years. That is something that we need to address. And if our organization does not address these issues in quite clear terms, why are even here?

So, therefore, I actually believe that the Committee were very, very firm. And you will hear in our voting results from the Committee what we decided on. You will also hear that there was a big majority regarding amendments decisions or not. Therefore, I look forward to what the Assembly will vote on.

Thank you so much, chair.

Vote: The functioning of democratic institutions in Poland

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:50:29

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Thank you. The debate is closed.

The monitoring committee has presented a draft resolution to which 46 amendments have been tabled. I remind you that speeches on amendments are limited to 30 seconds and as we have a long list, please, stay within the 30 seconds, dear colleagues.

I understand that the chairperson of the monitoring committee wishes to propose to the Assembly that amendments 42 and 46 to the draft resolution, which were unanimously approved by the committee, should be declared as agreed by the Assembly.

The committee also unanimously agreed to amendments number 40, 45 and 36. But as other amendments tabled may affect them, I must take them separately. Is that so Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN? Does anyone object?

As there is no objection, I declare that amendments 42 and 46 to the draft resolution have been agreed. I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 1.

Mister Dominik TARCZYŃSKI, you have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

15:52:10

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Thank you, Mister Chairman.

This is the discussion we had during the Committee. For me it's just a technical amendment.

That's why we are supporting it and I'd like to ask you for support. I think there is no discussion about it, because there is no discussion about if this is just a technical... we had this discussion this morning.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:52:36

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Does anyone else wish to support this amendment? Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment?

I call Mr Aleksander POCIEJ to speak against the amendment. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Aleksander POCIEJ

Poland, EPP/CD 

15:52:49

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Yes, thank you.

Very quickly. It's not the technical amendment. This is something very important, because if we add it, according to that, a country can create the new laws according to the socio-cultural particular conditions, that means that we have no common values and everybody can bring anything, even...

Thank you.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:53:22

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What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE, Chairperson of the Committee on the Honouring of Obligations and Commitments by member state of the Council of Europe 

15:53:26

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Yes, against. Sorry, by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:53:29

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Okay, I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is now open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 1 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 2. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

15:54:25

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Thank you very much, Mr President.

The technical question now. I would like to declare that we support all the amendments apart from the last three. Can I take floor with the last three or do you want me to support every single one?

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:54:39

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Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment?

I call on Mr Aleksander POCIEJ.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

15:54:42

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We support it because we do not agree with that, that's it.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:54:46

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Okay. Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment?

Mr Aleksander POCIEJ, you have 30 seconds.

Mr Aleksander POCIEJ

Poland, EPP/CD 

15:54:59

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Yes, thank you, Chair.

We cannot say, because this Amendment is saying that all reforms in Poland are fully in line with the real European norms and standards. We have Venice Commission. We have all authorities. This is absolutely not in line with the standards.

Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:55:27

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Thank you. What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE, Chairperson of the Committee on the Honouring of Obligations and Commitments by member state of the Council of Europe 

15:55:32

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Against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:55:35

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I shall now put the Amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment No 2 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support Amendment No 3.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

15:56:17

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Thank you, Mr President. 

Number 3 is very important because of one word: "self-governance", which is democracy, so we think it should be there. Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:56:28

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Does anyone wish to speak against the Amendment?

Mister Aleksander POCIEJ.

Mr Aleksander POCIEJ

Poland, EPP/CD 

15:56:37

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I'm against. Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:56:43

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Quite clear.

What is the opinion of the Committee on the Amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE, Chairperson of the Committee on the Honouring of Obligations and Commitments by member state of the Council of Europe 

15:56:48

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Against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:56:51

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I shall now put the Amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

The Amendment No 3 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support Amendment No 4.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

15:57:32

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Number 4 is very important because of the transparency, the word you want to hint at.

I can see that Pieter is happy with the results. The amendment was 160 against just by saying "I'm against". So, thank you.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:57:51

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I have been informed that the Committee wishes to propose an oral sub-amendment, as follows: replace the words "democratisation" with "democratic functioning".

In my opinion, the oral sub-amendment is in order under our rules. However, do 10 or more members object to the oral sub-amendment being debated?

Fewer than 10 members object to the oral sub-amendment being debated.

Therefore, I call one of the rapporteurs to support the oral sub-amendment.

Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON

Sweden, SOC 

15:58:40

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Yes, we think this is a better... we support it. We support "democratic functioning". We say it's better, as it is a better description than "democratisation". 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:58:54

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Does anyone wish to speak against the oral sub-amendment?

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

15:58:58

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Yes.

I can't see the difference. So if the rapporteur could explain the difference between "democratisation" and "functioning". Because she didn't do it, so I can't really understand what is the reason to change this word.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:59:12

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What is the opinion of the mover of the main amendment?

Okay, I will now...

Sorry, what is the opinion of the Committee?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE, Chairperson of the Committee on the Honouring of Obligations and Commitments by member state of the Council of Europe 

15:59:23

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The committee is for the sub-amendment - in favor - by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

15:59:30

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Okay, thank you.

I will now put the oral sub-amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

The oral sub-amendment is agreed.

Now, we come to the main amendment as amended. Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment as amended?

What is the opinion of the Committee?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE, Chairperson of the Committee on the Honouring of Obligations and Commitments by member state of the Council of Europe 

16:00:28

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The Committee are in favour by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:00:31

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Thank you.

I shall now put the amendment, as amended, to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 4, as amended, is agreed.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 5.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:01:10

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In this case it's about the word "however".

We had this discussion again, so I can't really see the reason we should change it.

It's just one word that doesn't change the meaning

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:01:23

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Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Pieter OMTZIGT?

Mr Pieter OMTZIGT

Co-Rapporteur, Netherlands, EPP/CD 

16:01:28

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Well, it changes the meaning 180 degrees. Because by putting in "however" it notices that the second phrase actually says something completely different from the first phrase. And if you don't put it then, you change the meaning of it around. And then you have different opinion on the reforms. So we really like to stay with our original text and are against this amendment.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:01:48

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What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:01:51

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We are against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:01:55

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I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 5 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 6.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:02:26

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Okay, this is about meaning as well. So what is the difference - because I can't really see the explanation from the rapporteurs - between "such reforms would amount to bringing the judiciary" instead of "activity of the courts". That's why we think it's about the nature of the courts. Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:02:44

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Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Pieter OMTZIGT?

Mr Pieter OMTZIGT

Co-Rapporteur, Netherlands, EPP/CD 

16:02:48

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Well, first of all it says: "add the words" so you get the phrase "such reforms would amount to bring the judiciary activity off the courts". So the sentence would arise, which I don't really understand what it means. And that alone is enough not to agree on it.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:03:08

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What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:03:10

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The Committee: against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:03:14

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I shall now put the amendment to the vote. The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 6 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 7. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:03:42

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It says "even worse, under the political control", so what does it mean "even worse"?

That's why we want to delete it. Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:03:52

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Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Aleksander POCIEJ?

Mr Aleksander POCIEJ

Poland, EPP/CD 

16:03:59

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I'm against this amendment because this is not about "even worse" but everything which is after the judiciary and that means under the political control of the ruling party. This is what this report is about and so this is a very, very critical and very important phrase.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:04:28

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What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:04:31

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The Committee are against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:04:34

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I shall now put the amendment to the vote. The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 7 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support Amendment number 8. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:05:05

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In this case it is about only one sentence which is about to fulfil this part of the report, so everyone agreed the courts are allowed to fulfil democracy, so I can't see the reason why it shouldn't be there.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:05:21

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Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? I call Mr Aleksander POCIEJ.

Mr Aleksander POCIEJ

Poland, EPP/CD 

16:05:30

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Yes, once again, this is an extremely important phrase, because that really shows - and this is what we are fighting against - that even if you have the majority there are some rules, constitutional rules, and international rules that should not be destroyed. And the majority doesn't give the possibility to change the rules which are the basic ones. Thank you.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:06:10

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What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:06:14

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The Committee are against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:06:17

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I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment 8 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 9. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:06:45

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Number 9 is very obvious, especially that the democratic state is governed by the rule of law. We all know that it should be the rule of law which is respected. That's why I want to delete it. It's obvious.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:06:56

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Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? I call Mr Pieter OMTZIGT.

Mr Pieter OMTZIGT

Co-Rapporteur, Netherlands, EPP/CD 

16:07:00

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Well, in paragraph 2 and 3 we give two tests to which the justice system has to obey. And in paragraph 4 we draw the conclusion it doesn't. And if you take away the conclusion then you make our report empty, so we're against this amendment being adopted.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:07:18

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What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:07:21

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The Committee are against it by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:07:24

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Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 9 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 10. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:07:55

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

It's the same thing, it's so obvious. Look at the last sentence: they should be promptly addressed by the authorities. It's obvious it's authority. So there's so many empty words. That's why I it think should be deleted.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:08:09

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Ms Azadeh ROHJAN GUSTAFSSON.

Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON

Co-Rapporteur, Sweden, SOC 

16:08:15

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Yes, thank you.

Well it's the same argument as before, that my colleague said, this is the key findings in our report.

It's very important for us to keep this part.

Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:08:26

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:08:29

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee is against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:08:32

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 10 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support Amendment 11.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:08:59

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I think this one is very important because we had this discussion today and everyone was, I think we agree, that we are open for dialogue. We are here, we are present, so this sentence is important to just stress that we are here. 

It's like: "welcomes Poland's openness to dialogue on justice reforms".

I think it's important to rapporteurs because you must say "we are here, we are open", so this sentence is very important.

That's why, please, support this amendment.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:09:32

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Marek BOROWSKI.

Mr Marek BOROWSKI

Poland, EPP/CD 

16:09:42

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The words about the openness of the Polish government is, I think, a kind of joke.

Because when the Venice Commission visited lately Poland nobody from the government wanted to meet with this Commission, and the Vice-Minister of Justice sent it to the museum of anti-communist soldiers.

That is the truth.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:10:16

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:10:19

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee are against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:10:22

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment 11 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 12.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:10:46

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

It's about implementation.

I'd like to ask you, maybe rapporteurs would know, how many countries did not implement it immediately?

It doesn't mean that in our process, which is in process, it is not going to happen. So I think, to say now, before the end of the reform, that it will not be implemented is just not right.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:11:06

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON.

Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON

Co-Rapporteur, Sweden, SOC 

16:11:11

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Thank you very much.

Well it has been four years. I don't think that it's still being considered or I don't think that there is more time needed to be implemented. So of course we are against.

Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:11:24

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:11:27

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee are against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:11:30

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 12 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support number 13.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:11:56

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

This one is about language: "call upon" or "asks". As we know we are free democratic countries so it's about to keep the culture. So it's about words. Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:12:10

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment?

Mr Pieter OMTZIGT

Co-Rapporteur, Netherlands, EPP/CD 

16:12:17

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Calls upon is a bit stronger in language.

I think the stronger language is warranted here since there is quite a bit going on in Poland.

So I would like to keep the original wording, call upon, and reject the amendment.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:12:30

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:12:35

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee are against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:12:38

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 13 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 14. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:13:05

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The same thing about language.

Revisit or consider. I think consider would be more appropriate.

Thank you.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:13:14

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Pieter OMTZIGT.

Mr Pieter OMTZIGT

Co-Rapporteur, Netherlands, EPP/CD 

16:13:19

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Revisit is quite a bit, sort of... Once again we try to weaken the language in here.

"Consider" is well, you can do it or you can't do it. And with "revisit" we are saying well, you should really change it.

So I'd like to keep the original word, revisit, and not go along replacing it with consider.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:13:41

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment ? 

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:13:44

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee are against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:13:47

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 14 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 15. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:14:14

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Language again. Mr Pieter OMTZIGT just said that "considers" is a weakening of the language, but he is using it in other parts. So we would like to have "notes" instead of "considers".

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:14:28

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON.

Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON

Co-Rapporteur, Sweden, SOC 

16:14:34

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

It's the same thing here. It's about weakening the language, so we want to keep it as it is.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:14:39

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment? 

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:14:42

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee are against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:14:45

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 15 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 16. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:15:12

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Language again, "extensive discretionary". What does it mean? Why do we use this kind of language when we can describe things without changing the meaning? There is no need for using this kind of language.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:15:25

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Pieter OMTZIGT.

Mr Pieter OMTZIGT

Co-Rapporteur, Netherlands, EPP/CD 

16:15:28

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Well, the original wording is that the Prosecutor General has extensive discretionary powers over the prosecution service. And that's exactly the problem we see, because they can give orders in individual cases. If you would make out he has got powers of the prosecution service, yes, of course he's got powers over the prosecution service, otherwise he wouldn't be Prosecutor General. So it would take away the whole meaning of the fact that these powers are excessive. That's why we are against taking out these words.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:15:58

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment? 

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:16:01

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee are against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:16:04

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 16 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 17. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:16:31

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

It's about undermining prosecution service. No one is undermining prosecution service, so I think again, it is not a mirror of the reality, so we want to delete it.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:16:42

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON.

Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON

Co-Rapporteur, Sweden, SOC 

16:16:46

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Yes, thank you.

Well, what we are seeing is actually the opposite. We are seeing that there is undermining going on when it comes to impartiality and independence of the prosecution service. So this is one of our key findings and it must be kept in the report.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:17:03

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:17:06

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee is against by a large majority. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:17:09

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 17 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSK to support amendment number 18. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:17:36

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Language again. We would like to use the word "notes" instead of "expressing" or any other. I think there's no need for that. Most of these amendments are about language. It doesn't change meaning.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:17:49

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment. Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON?

Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON

Co-Rapporteur, Sweden, SOC 

16:17:55

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Yes, thank you. No, we want to keep the word "concerned" because we are really concerned.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:18:01

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:18:04

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee is against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:18:07

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 18 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 19. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:18:35

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Okay, why do we have "counter to European rule of law standards"? What is not a standard in Germany and France. We had this discussion again, because in Poland we have Minister of Justice, then we have National Board of Justice and then we have courts. In Germany, there's no national board of justice, there's a minister appointing the head judges in the courts. So, what kind of standards are we talking about in here? So, delete it, thank you.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:19:05

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Aleksander POCIEJ?

Mr Aleksander POCIEJ

Poland, EPP/CD 

16:19:12

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Thank you.

It's indeed a very important thing.

If you read the Venice Commission's opinion as well, the opinions from all the constitutionalists in Poland, that counters the principle of separation of powers.

Thank you.

 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:19:36

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:19:39

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee are against by a large majority. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:19:42

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 19 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support number 20.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:20:09

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

"Balance of power": that was the argument the whole day today so we are trying to use the sentence - which is very clear - about the balance of power because in the original text there is no mention of it in this part. So we think it is more appropriate.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:20:24

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment?

What is the opinion of the Committee?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:20:32

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee is against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:20:35

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 20 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support number 21.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:21:02

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

It's the same thing. "Concerned", to exchange with a "notes". Language.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:21:08

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Krzysztof ŚMISZEK, please.

Mr Krzysztof ŚMISZEK

Poland, SOC 

16:21:20

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

We would like to keep this sentence in the resolution because this is not about language, this is about the essence of the changes that are introduced recently, in the last five years, in the Prosecutor Office and in the justice system so this is not a matter of language this is an essence of the reforms in Poland. Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:21:47

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:21:51

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee is against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:21:54

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 21 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 22.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:22:22

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I think there was no there was no discussion about number 22. I think we agreed that it should be amended so that's what we had on our Committee this morning. So I don't know why we should discuss it.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:22:40

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON?

Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON

Sweden, SOC, Co-Rapporteur 

16:22:49

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

We are extremely concerned about combination of the function. So this paragraph is very needed to stress that. Thank you. 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:22:58

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:23:00

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee is against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:23:03

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 22 is rejected.

Amendment number 42 was previously agreed.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 24.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:24:10

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Mr President, what about number 42?

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:24:13

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

That was already agreed.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:24:15

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Alright.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:24:20

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Twenty-four, yes.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:24:24

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

It's just repeating. That's why we asked to delete it. It is just repeating the same sentences. So, what is the reason to write the book when it's already been set?

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:24:34

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment?

Mr Aleksander POCIEJ.

Mr Aleksander POCIEJ

Poland, EPP/CD 

16:24:41

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Yes, thank you. I strongly believe this is the core of this report and this is a very, very important paragraph or point. Really, the biggest problem that we have, that both the Supreme Court now is under the pressure, and the National Council of the Judiciary cannot be considered as impartial and an independent body. This is once again, that was shown and by all opinions and this is absolutely true.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:25:26

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:25:28

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee is against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:25:31

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 24 is rejected.

I call Mr Giuseppe FASSINO to support amendment number 40.

You have 30 seconds.

Mr Giuseppe FASSINO

Italy 

16:26:07

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Thank you, Chair. The amendment highlights the contrast between the impartiality and independence of the Supreme Court and the partiality of the National Council of the Judiciary. So from this point of view it is an important paragraph because it highlights one of the most significant crisis points in the Polish judicial system.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:26:33

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI?

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:26:40

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

It's just imagination. It doesn't have anything to do with the facts, so I would like to recommend you to read the report and our act.

Thank you.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:26:48

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee? 

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:26:51

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee voted unanimously in favour.

 

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:26:55

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 40 is agreed.

As amendment number 40 is agreed, amendment number 23 falls.

Amendment number 46 was agreed unanimously.

Amendment number 25. I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 25. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:27:42

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

It's language again. It's "Although," which I think is more appropriate. It doesn't change the meaning.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:27:48

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Mr Pieter OMTZIGT.

Mr Pieter OMTZIGT

Co-Rapporteur, Netherlands, EPP/CD 

16:27:52

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Well, it does change the meaning. The offered argument that the Polish justice reforms are in line with European standards is invalid. And that means we don't think it's valid. Here we try to change it to "although the Polish justice reforms are in line with European standards". That's changing it around 180 degrees. So this is not language. This is changing it completely around, which you're allowed to do, but if you want to do it please tell that you want to change it. We are against this change.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:28:20

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

What is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment? 

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

Denmark, ALDE 

16:28:22

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

The Committee is against by a large majority.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:28:25

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

I shall now put the amendment to the vote.

The vote is open.

The vote is closed.

I call for the results to be displayed.

Amendment number 25 is rejected.

I call Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI to support amendment number 26. You have 30 seconds.

Mr Dominik TARCZYŃSKI

Poland, EC/DA 

16:28:53

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

So this is about European standards and this is the third time that this argument is in the report, used again and again. What is the reason? Just to use the paper? You want to delete it.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:29:07

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment?

Ms Azadeh ROJHAN GUSTAFSSON

Co-Rapporteur, Sweden, SOC 

16:29:13

Video EN | OV
Print intervention

Thank you.

Well, this paragraph is about how the abuse of disciplinary proceeding is going on in Poland. It is a key concern of the international community as well as ours, so we have to keep this part because we need to outline that this is a very difficult situation.

Thank you.

Mr Akif Çağatay KILIÇ

Turkey, NR, President of the Assembly 

16:29:34

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Does anyone wish to speak against the amendment? Sorry, what is the opinion of the Committee on the amendment?

Mr Michael Aastrup JENSEN

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