lundi 29 septembre 2025 après-midi
2025 - Quatrième partie de session Imprimer la séanceVidéo(s) de la séance 1 / 1
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
16:46:48
The sitting is now open.
Ladies and gentlemen, to ensure that your presence is properly recorded, when you take your seat in the Chamber, I would remind you that you must insert your badge and leave it in place for at least 30 seconds. You must also insert it before you can speak or vote. To request the floor, please press the "request" button.
In addition, as indicated this morning, I would remind you that members who have not submitted an annual declaration of interests must begin their speech with an oral declaration of interests in accordance with paragraph 20 of the Code of Conduct for Members of the Parliamentary Assembly.
30 years ago in Srebrenica, more than 8,000 Bosnian men and boys were killed. In 2007, the International Court of Justice ruled that these atrocities constituted genocide. The Bosnian War, which left more than 5,000 dead, thousands of women raped and more than two million people driven from their homes between 1992 and 1995, on this solemn occasion we remember one of the darkest chapters in Europe's recent history and we join together to honour the memory of the victims.
Today, our thoughts are with the survivors and families who continue to bear unimaginable pain and whose fight for justice continues. Let us remember the victims.
The lesson of Srebrenica must not be one of silence or symbolic commemoration. Within the Council of Europe and in the construction of a Europe united in the promotion of the values of democracy, human rights and the rule of law, it must be a call to action. Let us make sure that we do everything possible to ensure that such atrocities never happen again.
I would ask you to observe a minute's silence in memory of the victims.
The next item on the agenda is the continuation of the debate on the progress report of the Bureau and the Standing Committee, presented by Mr Zsolt NÉMETH (Doc. 16257 and Addenda 1 and 2), and the report by Mr Iulian BULAI (Doc. 16258) on behalf of the Ad hoc Committee of the Bureau on the observation of the presidential election in Poland (18 May and 1 June 2025).
We therefore continue the general debate that we started this morning. The debate should be over by 5.30 p.m. Please note that each speaker may speak for no more than 3 minutes.
In the general debate, I call Mrs Bisera KOSTADINOVSKA-STOJCHEVSKA of the Socialists, Democrats and Greens Group to take the floor.
Thank you.
Macédoine du Nord, SOC
16:51:08
Madam Chair,
Allow me to first thank Mr Iulian BULAI for the successful election observation mission and thank him for the work done.
I believe both him and all of us who are members of the observation delegation did a good job in creating this balanced approach in the report that is in front of us.
Poland held its presidential elections in a very interesting and, at times, a very far-reaching atmosphere. We are all familiar with the small margins of the new President who was elected and it's something that the Polish public has to have in mind. The absence of public debate was something that prevailed in the election process and is a mirror of what is actually happening in this society.
The foreign influence, the attempt to modify it, the constant battle between who gets to have the blackest of campaigns mirrored itself in the everyday attitudes of the Polish nation. That is: the indifference of the youth [about] topics important for them; the selective approach towards issues of national importance; issues of well-being, and the importance of life in Poland in general.
The 2025 presidential elections highlighted persistent gender imbalances in political participation.
Unlike the 2023 parliamentary elections, which saw a surge of female candidates and strong mobilisation of women voters, these elections featured only two female president candidates. That being said, allow me to congratulate our own Ms Magdalena BIEJAT for being one of those two brave female candidates. Civil society organisations and observers widely regretted this, noting the persistent gender imbalance in political leadership, underlining that it limited political pluralism and deprived the electorate of perspective crucial for debates on equality and social rights.
Civic actors highlighted that those younger women who had been highly mobilised in the 2023 parliamentary elections, around issues of reproductive rights and liberalisation, appeared less engaged in this presidential race. Frustration with the government's cautious pace on gender equality reforms contributed to this disillusionment.
In the aftermath, political leaders now must further strengthen the trustworthiness and accountability of Poland's democratic institutions for the benefit of all citizens.
True democracy is not a veto or no veto manoeuvring. It is a shared responsibility.
Thank you.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
16:53:46
Thank you for your contribution.
Mr Oleksii GONCHARENKO, you have the floor.
Colleagues, today we started our session with a very powerful message. Here was the original of the European Convention on Human Rights. This is a real milestone in human progress in human history. But as any other document or book, it is just a paper if it's not defended, if it's not protected. So, who today is the protector of human rights in Europe? With all respect to all of us, we like to say that we are here to protect human rights in Europe, but today, human rights in Europe are protected not by us, not by politicians, in general. They are protected by Ukrainian soldiers.
By the way, it is very symbolic, today, PUTIN signed the law in Russia, which denounces the European Convention on the Prevention of Torture, so now, the torturing of people is legal in Russia. And believe me, one thing that PUTIN wants more than to torture his own people, Ukrainians, his dream is to torture Europeans, and who stands between him and his dream? Ukrainian soldiers.
And I just want to tell you – Ukrainian soldiers, who are so important today – but how much is a Ukrainian soldier paid? €450 when he or she is on rotation and not on the frontline, but maybe just several kilometres from the frontline. Once again, €15 a day for people who are risking their lives 24/7.
So I want to address you, the best language of solidarity in this case is money. Help us in Ukraine to pay soldiers what they deserve. It is a disgrace that those who shield the continent from the horror receive and live on less than the minimum wage of the continent they protect. The salary of soldiers in Poland is €1 200 to €1 400. In France, €1 500 to €3 000. In Germany, €3 000 to €4 000. In Norway or Denmark, €4 000 to €6 000. Ukrainian soldiers should receive at least €1 000, and it is possible with your support.
So, my address to you, treat Ukrainian soldiers as your own soldiers. Fail to pay Ukrainian soldiers, and you will pay. Fail to pay Ukrainian soldiers who protect Europe, and you will pay Russian soldiers who will plunder it.
Thank you very much.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
16:56:43
Thank you for your contribution.
Ms Hripsime GRIGORYAN, you have the floor.
Thank you Madam President.
The last time I was addressing this very respectful hemicycle, Armenia and Azerbaijan were still on their way to making peace. Today, the peace agreement is pre-signed and peace is established between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
This however is not the end of the story, but a reality that needs to be nurtured, and taken care of on a daily basis. When we say 'nurtured', the first is not to harm; to avoid using narratives that contradict the achievement of the agreement, such as terms associated with the conflict or narratives of emnity, something we unfortunately continue to hear in the official speeches of the President of Azerbaijan.
Building and deepening trust is another important brick for strengthening peace. It can be built by addressing problems, among them the release of Armenian prisoners of war, and persons held in captivity in Azerbaijan, also the fate of missing persons.
Another essential direction that will strengthen peace, stability and prosperity in the region is the unblocking of regional communictions.
On 8 August the declaration signed in Washington by the Prime Minister of Armenia, the President of Azerbaijan and the President of the United States as witness, states that all communications are to be open and operate on the principles of sovereignty and jurisidiction of the country they pass through, and based on the principles of reciprocity and equality.
The TRIPP project, the Trump Route for International Peace and Prosperity, is a connectivity project in the territory of Armenia. In fact, TRIPP is a reflection and part of the "Crossroads of Peace" project initiated by the Armenian government. Its aim is to serve as a bridge connecting east to west and north to south, through railways, highways but also pipelines, electricity lines and cables. It is also important to mention that opening the border with Türkiye will be highly essential for implementation of the TRIPP route investment project and the "Crossroads of Peace" at large.
Once all of the aforementioned is in process and implemented, peace will become more institutional, as connectedness and interdependency will create a reality that is mutually beneficial, hence creating less room or motivation for threatening that reality.
[In] concluding, I want to express hope that the peace process will only grow stronger despite persistent challenges.
On an even more optimistic note, I wish that this peace process is inspiring and useful for other conflicting parties, as all of us suffer from continuous wars, and all of us only benefit from peace.
Let us stand there and work endlessly to establish and strengthen peace.
Thank you.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
16:59:38
Thank you for your contribution.
Mr Marko PAVIĆ, you have the floor.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
First of all, I would like to thank you for this minute of silence for 30 years remembrance of this Srebrenica genocide.
It reminds us that we need to support human rights and European processes in the Western Balkans so Srebrenica never happens again.
Our Prime Minister Mr Andrej PLENKOVIĆ was in Srebrenica recently to pay homage and respect to the victims and their families.
Part of my speech will also be dedicated to supporting democratic processes in the Western Balkans.
But first I would like to begin by extending my warm congratulations to the people of Moldova for successful parliamentary elections that were held yesterday, [in which] the pro-European Party of Action and Solidarity has secured a clear majority of 50%, demonstrating that the citizens of Moldova continue to choose the European path, despite external pressures and interference.
This is a strong signal of resilience and commitment to democratic values.
This is a strong voice for the pro-European processes, also for other EU candidate countries.
The path of European integration is demanding, and candidate states need more than promises. They require sustained institutional, technical, and political support.
We must increase our presence in these countries to do field missions, stronger co-operation with civil society, target capacity building and timely risk assessment.
Our support must always remain merit based, rewarding countries that demonstrate clear progress and democratic reforms, the rule of law and protection of human rights.
The Western Balkans are of crucial importance for the future of Europe in terms of security and stability, democracy and integration.
Croatia is the most recent member of the European Union from the region, and is ready to serve as a bridge and partner in this process.
Our support is based on merit, but Croatia stands ready to share its know-how, best practices and technical expertise with our neighbours.
This includes peer exchange training for [members of the] civil service, judges, support in legislative alignment and capacity building for civil society.
We must strengthen synergies with the European Union and other international partners to maximise impact.
We also need to enhance monitoring and follow-up, not only in elections, but also in areas such as judicial independence, media freedom, anti-corruption, good governance, minority rights and support and strengthen civil society in the Western Balkans and candidate countries.
Finally, I would like to give support to all the democratic processes in Moldova, in Georgia and in Western Balkan countries.
The Council of Europe as the major stakeholder of human rights needs to support these democratic processes all the way.
Thank you very much.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
17:02:42
Thank you for your contribution.
Mr Armen GEVORGYAN, you have the floor.
Madam Chair,
The Armenian people are being asked to believe that, following the Washington declarations, peace has already been achieved between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Yet the Washington peace is not the conclusion of the conflict, but the start of a new phase of regional uncertainty.
Armenia has once again found itself in a position where its geopolitical agenda is being dictated. Efforts to neutralise the Turkic risk while ignoring others' historically deep geopolitical interests create not stability, but new lines of confrontation.
Dear colleagues,
When tomorrow in this hemicycle you hear talk of a new era of peace, I urge you to reflect. Why has this era not freed Armenian prisoners in Baku, not opened the Armenian–Turkish border, not led to the withdrawal of Azerbaijani forces from occupied Armenian territories, not stopped the aggressive militarisation of Azerbaijan? It is in this era of peace that my people hear Mr Ilham ALIYEV demanding constitutional changes in Armenia and the so-called Zangezur Corridor.
Ask yourself, under what international rules and democratic traditions can Turkic leaders demand the return of Azerbaijanis to Armenia and Meskhetian Turks to Georgia, while denying the same right to the Armenians of Karabakh? Can such injustice provide long-term and lasting peace in the region?
Dear colleagues,
Peace is not simply the absence of war, it is an adequate system of security. Europe likes success stories of reconciliation, but in this case it must not applaud formal documents. It must demand real guarantees and balance. The new Armenian model of peace cannot be sterile. This is precisely why Armenia cannot and should not abandon its existing connections and capabilities in pursuit of illusions.
We are witnessing the West's inability to stop the war in Ukraine. The largest US military base has not protected Qatar from periodic bombings. The entire Arab world could not prevent the ongoing catastrophe in Gaza Strip. The values and traditions of the democratic world have failed to protect the Armenians of Karabakh from ethnic cleansing. All this only confirms my conviction that countries like Armenia cannot face a false choice. True peace in the current international environment is based on deterrence, rules and coercion, not on hope. I urge you to help Armenia strengthen and complement its current security layers by implementing what might be called the doctrine of cumulative security. We must remember artificial peace is postponed war.
Thank you.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
17:05:40
Thank you for your contribution.
Ms Iwona ARENT, you have the floor.
Ms Chair, dear colleagues,
Karol NAWROCKI became the victim of a dirty campaign in the 2025 elections. His programme was not attacked. Only his private life, family and past. The media published rumours and anonymous slander at key moments of the campaign. It was an organised campaign to discredit the candidate supported by the patriotic camp.
State services were also used. Data from the International Security Agency was leaked to the media, which is scandalous and a threat to democracy.
Anonymous profiles on the internet financed with 420 000 promoted Rafal TRZASKOWSKI and attacked the right wing. It is suspected that the Scientific and Academic Computer Network – an institution that should protect rather than divide – was behind this. NAWROCKI's party had its subsidy withdrawn, hampering its campaign. But the Polish people showed their strength. Thousands of people donated money to support the candidate, fighting for a fair Poland. Thanks to you, we have a president who represents us. Thank you for your solidarity.
Thank you.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
17:07:33
Thank you for your contribution.
Mr Pierre LAMELY, you have the floor.
Madam President, ladies and gentlemen, I would also like to speak about the Polish presidential elections.
I would also like to talk about the report on the Polish presidential elections. The report identifies shortcomings in the judiciary, the media and trust in the institutions. And yes, we should take this very seriously and we should also look at what we can learn from this report for our own member states.
Because with regard to Poland, the public media is criticised for being biased and distorting competition. And in Germany, where I come from, we are experiencing something similar. The AfD is the strongest party in the polls, but hardly any AfD politicians are invited to appear on public talk shows, while representatives of the governing parties are there to talk. This is not a neutral media landscape, it is a controlled public sphere.
And it goes on: every year, millions of euros flow into left-wing structures via NGOs, which act as front organisations for governing parties. Citizens experience this as one-sided propaganda, while critical voices in the opposition are marginalised.
Ladies and gentlemen, the lesson to be learnt from this report should be as follows: we must not only look to Poland, but also demand consequences in our own countries. This report is also encouraging because it shows that, despite all the hurdles, the people prevail in the end. We have also experienced this in Germany, that the people prevail in the end. Let us think, for example, of the former GDR, the German Democratic Republic. The motto of the GDR regime was, quote: "It has to look democratic, but we have to keep everything in our hands."
So I ask: do we really want to go back to a time like that? I don't want that. That's why I say: anyone who suppresses critical voices and stigmatises them as alleged disinformation, anyone who excludes promising candidates such as Ms Marine LE PEN, Mr Călin GEORGESCU or Mr Joachim PAUL and anyone who even wants to ban entire parties does not fear for democracy. They are afraid of democracy. Thank you very much.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
17:09:43
Thank you for your contribution.
Mr Jan KANTHAK, you have the floor.
Dear colleagues,
I have a question for you. Have you ever heard about the situation when the opposition is rigging the elections? Probably not, but in Poland it's possible because our government, for the first time in history, has accused the opposition of electoral fraud. Yes, Mr Donald TUSK's government, which preached the rule of law, protested as if Mr Karol NAWROCKI had won the election by cheating rather than in a fair vote.
This is not a comedy; this is Poland, 2025.
Let us move to serious matters.
Mr Karol NAWROCKI won the presidential elections on 1 June 2025, gaining over 50% of the vote. However, the government and the prime minister stubbornly tried to undermine this result. Thousands of election protests, demands for a recount, pressure on the Supreme Court – this was not a defence of a democracy, but an attempt to undermine it. The result was eventually confirmed, but the bad taste remained.
Let's first talk about the illegal seizure of funds. Our Committee – Law and Justice – which supported Mr Karol NAWROCKI had tens of millions of zloty in public subsidies withheld under the pretext of administrative errors. Our rivals? No! No obstacles. It was like a boxing match with one hand tied behind your back. There was no chance for a fair campaign. The courts later restored the funds, but they didn't care.
Secondly, the bias of the public media. National media, under government control, ran a campaign against Mr Karol NAWROCKI, while Mr Rafał TRZASKOWSKI was portrayed in superlative terms. The OSCE report of June 2025 clearly stated that the public media showed clear bias, portraying Mr Karol NAWROCKI negatively, and favouring Mr Rafał TRZASKOWSKI.
This is not journalism; this is propaganda.
And finally, the icing on the cake, the Akcja Demokracja scandal. This foundation, Akcja Demokracja, linked to Civic Platform, spent hundreds of thousands of zloty from abroad via the Austrian company Estratos Digital, on online advertisements attacking Mr Karol NAWROCKI on Facebook and other platforms. This is illegal campaign financing, and the government agency responsible for transparency on the internet turned a blind eye to it. It is a scandal that undermines confidence in the elections.
To sum up, this is how it works in the liberal left-wing world. The thief cries: "Catch the thief".
Thank you.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
17:13:16
Thank you for your contribution.
That concludes the list of speakers. Mr Zsolt NÉMETH, rapporteur, you have three minutes to reply to the speakers.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for this lively debate.
First of all, I would like to respond to the Polish elections. However, I'm convinced that my colleague is also having opinions about this.
I'm grateful to the Polish colleagues who were dwelling on this issue, and I believe this proves very clearly that foreign external influence may not just come from Russia.
Foreign influence may come from other directions.
And we all have to be aware of this very complex phenomenon, and how to protect our democracies from this type of external influence.
But I believe that Polish democracy has proven to be strong, and I believe that the Warsaw fast train of democracy is going to be successful, and not just in Poland.
Secondly, I would like to respond to the Armenian–Azeri aspects. This agreement is not the end. This agreement is just the beginning, and I think the atmosphere has changed.
And this changed atmosphere seems to be good grounds for the continuing of the diplomatic process to close the questions that remain open.
And as I have said, I hope that we will soon again be able to see our Azeri colleagues back in the Parliamentary Assembly.
And finally, I would like to underline what Ms Elisabetta GARDINI and President Theodoros ROUSOPOULOS were discussing at the beginning of this discussion, violence against journalists. No way should we allow this, nor should we allow violence against politicians.
And I support the initiative of the President to pay attention to this phenomenon and to return to this issue with a report.
Thank you very much for listening.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
17:16:29
Thank you for your contribution.
We are now going to vote on the decisions taken by the Board in its activity report, as set out in the document...
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Excusez-moi.
On a point of order, in the light of the contents of this debate, I request that the Assembly annuls the decision of the Committee on the Election of Judges to the European Court of Human Rights to reject the Hungarian list on procedural grounds.
The Committee of Ministers has confirmed that the right procedure was followed and it seems that the Committee on the Election of Judges to the European Court of Human Rights, on which I have the privilege of serving, was given incorrect and incomplete information. We should therefore ask the Committee to proceed with interviewing the three Hungarian candidates as soon as possible. And I know nobody has cast any aspersions upon their competence or qualifications. And I think we should proceed with those interviews ASAP.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
17:17:48
Thank you.
Sir Christopher CHOPE objects to the decision of the Committee on the Election of Judges to the European Court of Human Rights to ask the Hungarian Government to submit a new list of candidates for the position of judge at the European Court of Human Rights.
Does anyone wish to speak against this objection?
Ms Petra BAYR, you have the floor.
As I explained already in the morning, the decision was taken by a very large majority.
3/4 of the Committee was of the opinion that the composition of the national selection body was not okay. If we refer the list to the Committee, it's the same Committee, it's the same procedure, it's the same composition of the same body.
I do not assume that anything will be changed. It only undermines the credibility and the possibility of our procedures and of the Committee as such. So I'm against this rejection.
Thank you.
Andorre, ADLE, Présidente de l'Assemblée
17:18:56
Thank you for your contribution.
We are going to vote by a simple majority on the objection which will have the effect of referring the question to the Committee on the Election of Judges to the European Court of Human Rights.
Those in favour of Sir Christopher CHOPE's objection will vote "YES".
Those who support the proposal of the Committee on the Election of Judges to the European Court of Human Rights to reject the list in respect of Hungary will vote "NO".
The vote is open.
The vote is closed.
I call for the result to be displayed.
The "NO" vote wins. The objection is rejected. The Hungarian Government will therefore be asked to submit a new list of candidates.
Is there any other objection to the adoption of these decisions?
There are no objections, so the activity report is approved.
Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to inform you that proposed changes to the composition of the Committees have been published in Document Commissions (2025) 06 Addendum 2. Are there any objections to these changes?
They are adopted.
The next sitting will take place tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. in accordance with the agenda for this part-session.
The meeting is adjourned.
Thank you for your attention.
